Model 1893

This is an area for guests to post questions

Moderators: Regnier (gunrunner), JohnK, Sure-Shot, Marlin

Forum rules
I have unlocked this forum but made it read only for non members -- Webmaster --

Model 1893

Postby JohnWylie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:58 pm

I have my father's Marlin model 1893 with serial number C3595. An ealier web site query indicated it was manufactured before 1883.. The rifle is a 30-30 caliber but I still have some of the original Reminton cartridges that are 25-36 caliber. I was wondering anyone could help determine the actual date of manufacture. My father was born on the Blackfoot reservation in Browning Montana in 1911 but I can't be sure when be acquired this Marlin rifle. Any help would be appreciated.
JohnWylie
 

Re: Model 1893

Postby marlin 1893 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:34 am

Just a little more information will help a great deal.
Where is the serial number located. I am guessing on the bottom of the trigger plate near the fore arm?I
Whether the barrel is marked Co.or Corporration.
Is it a rifle or carbine also the length of the barrel
Is the tang marked Model 1893 or Model 93.
Is there two factory holes on top of the receiver behind Marlin Safety.
Is the barrel marked Special Smokeless Steel.
marlin 1893
Marksman 1st Class
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Re: Model 1893

Postby JohnWylie » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:16 am

Where is the serial number located. I am guessing on the bottom of the trigger plate near the fore arm?I
Yes, there is one marked near the fore arm and one marked on the inside of the metal butt plate

Whether the barrel is marked Co.or Corporration.
The barrel was changed to a 30-30 caliber rifle sometime and has the Marlin Firearms stamp.

Is it a rifle or carbine also the length of the barrel
The barrel is 19 9/16" in length

Is the tang marked Model 1893 or Model 93.
The tang is marked with Model
+1893+

Is there two factory holes on top of the receiver behind Marlin Safety.
Yes, there are two screw holes on top of the receiver behind Marln Safety, the first screw hole is larger than the one closest to the stock

Is the barrel marked Special Smokeless Steel.
Not this barrel..

really appreciate your response and sorry for the delay in answering..
JohnWylie
 

Re: Model 1893

Postby Parley Baer » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:52 am

Your rifle/carbine was most likely made in the 1918 to 1919 era. There are no factory records available however a lot of research has be done on the Model 1893 and Model 93 and we feel reasonably certain on the time frame.
It's a chancey job and it makes a man watchfull....and a little lonely.
Parley Baer
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 808
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:15 pm

Re: Model 1893

Postby JohnWylie » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:26 am

Do you know if Marlin manufactured their rifles/carbines in only their facility in Connecticut..? Were their weapons sold exclusively to the Military in 1918 and before? Do you know if they changed their serial number formats (1 alpha character + 4 digits versus 5 to 8 digits only) at a certain time or with a particular model? Often a change in manufacturing facility or major product launch will generate a serial number format change.
JohnWylie
 

Re: Model 1893

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:26 am

JohnWylie;

Marlin had two factories in Connecticut. The first and original was located in New Haven, Ct. from about 1870 to 1970. The newer factory started production in North Haven, Ct. in 1970 and just closed last year.
Marlin never went for military contracts until the Marlin family sold out to the corporation in 1916, and then the Marlin Arms Corporation (later Marlin-Rockwell) made machine guns for WW I.
After 1916, the Marlin Arms Corp. changed the serial number system to letter and number. From 1881 when Marlin introduced their first lever action rifle until December of 1916, all lever guns were serialized in sequence from number 1 up to the end regardless of the model in production at the time. It is surmised that serial numbers reached near 450,000 by 1916, but the final number is not known at this time.
I hope this helps.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there be no warning shot!

The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
Regnier (gunrunner)
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:33 am
Location: The Sunflower State

Re: Model 1893

Postby marlin 1893 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:55 pm

With the introduction of John M. Marlins first production repeating rifle later to be known as
the Model 1881 introduced in the 40 caliber and the 45-70 Govt. He submitted it to the 1881-1882
U.S. Military Trials to Select a Magazine Gun.There were some problems at the trials with Marlins
repeater and the Government decided against the 1881.In the early days it seems most fire arms
companys were after the Government Contracts.I think what gunrunner was referring to was that
in 1915 the Marlin Family did not go after the Govt. contracts.In april 1915 the J.P.Morgan export
dept. approached the Marlin company to manufacture 100,000 Mauser rifles.The Marlin family declined
and this lead to the sale of the company in 1915 with it becoming the Marlin Arms Corporation in 1916
then the Marlin-Rockwell Corporation in 1917.It seems that Marlin-Rockwell assembled a few sporting
arms durring there ownership from parts left over from the Marlin Company,also one would think that
there were some completed rifles a well.What remains unclear to me is whether the Marlin Company
introduced the letter prefix with the receivers on completed guns and on the receivers in the parts bin
or did the Marlin-Rockwell corporation introduce this .
marlin 1893
Marksman 1st Class
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Re: Model 1893

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:09 pm

Marlin 1893;

Clearly, the Marlin Arms Corporation started the letter prefix system. Marlin stated with number 1 and continued on until the end, why change a system that they had always used when there clearly was no reason to do so............they were proud of the number of guns they produced, and a continous serial number system starting at number 1 would show how many guns they had produced since inception of the company. The "W" brand guns had no problem serial numbering guns over 1,000,000 on the models they produced, so I do not think Marlin would have either.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there be no warning shot!

The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
Regnier (gunrunner)
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:33 am
Location: The Sunflower State

Re: Model 1893

Postby marlin 1893 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:09 pm

One thing that is certain Marlin did change the serial number system they started with.For the most part it started
in 1907. No records.I am just not that clear on the letter prefixs.From 1881-1906 Marlin serial numbers go to around
355300.A twenty-six year run averaged around 13,665 rifles per year.By 1902 they reached 29,200 but 1906 shows a
drop to 26,300.I have read in a earlier post on a rifle with a 442,xxx serial dated to 1913.1907-1913 these seven years
produce 94,700 rifles with a 13,528 per year average.Thats pretty close to a 50% decline in seven years on the same
five Models cataloged in 1906.Now were down to 1914 and 1915.If you take the 442,xxx from the estimate of 450,000
you come up with 8,000 rifles for two years.Thats 4,000 rifles in five listed Models.I think this might have been good
enough reason to make a change.This is why I think maybe the Marlin Fire Arms Company may have introduced the
letter prefix earlier than thought to make things look a little better.I just dont think they would have been to proud
of the numbers they were seeing in the latter years.This also leads me to belive that they were entertaining the idea
of selling the Company a few years before the 1915 offer.This just happened along at at a good time and Marlin Arms
Corporation could have cared less about the sales numbers in the sporting firearms.They had a lot bigger fish to fry.
This to me would help explain the very low numbers in 1914 and 1915.I do belive this new system carried on through
the Marlin-Rockwell era with the fire arms they assembled from parts and a few into the newly formed Marlin Firearms
Corporation ending with the D prefix with just a few rifles in the higher 8,xxx range having the bullseye and the star.
marlin 1893
Marksman 1st Class
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Re: Model 1893

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Marliln 18u93;

Oh where to start... Attempting to average the number works for a while, but in 1898, Marliln expands the product line to include the exposed hammer, pump action shotguns. In the 1911 catalog, Marlin states that in the 13 years of production, they have produced nearly 150,000 of these exposed hammer shotguns. Now, lets complicate things a lttle more by adding the half dozen differnt pump action rifles introduced in 1906 of which, the production quanities are entirely unknown. Then, in 1911, we add to the production line, another product, the hammerless pump action shotgun, again quanities produced unknown. Somewhere in this period of time, we find that there are Model 1895's sitting in the warehouse anywhere from 2 to 3 years longer than other models of the same serial number range that have been shipped. Later, some of the other models can be found with ship dates a year or more later than serial numbers in the same range. So, if lever guns are not selling, why make them? Also, with all this other product lines starting up, the factory would have had to expand and more employees hired to maintain the "average" number of lever guns with the addition of the other lines. Any expansiosn probably did not happen as Marlin was not one to expand then have to cut back later, as it was not considered good business to do so.
You are correct that the negotitions did begin in mid-1915, so that would only leave about a year and a half before the Marlin family gives up control of the factory when one considers the gun made in late 1913 with a serial number in the 442,000 range. There have been reports of guns in the 455,000 range, so that means that there were about 13,000 lever guns (plus all the other product lines) made in that last year and half that the Marlin family owned the business considering the gun in the 442,000 serial number range. If they were going to sell the business, the production of guns would have been slowed in those last 6 months so as to sell all guns in inventory (no sense leaving assets behind whey you can sell them yourself)
When one takes into account the thousands upon thousands of guns other than lever guns, the factory had all they could do. Serial numbering did not change as there was NO REASON to change something they had been using since 1881. We see very high serial numbers that we know to have went higher than the 442,000 range, showinig that the serial numbers from the beginning were still in use in late 1913/1914. WHY would they change the system for the last year and a half? Answer, they did not.
It was the Marlin Arms Corporation that started using the letter/number system, and kept the serial number location in the same place, up near the forearm as that is where the employees retained had always placed the serial numbers. Marlin-Rockwell continued the same system as Marlin Arms.
I hope this helps.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there be no warning shot!

The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
Regnier (gunrunner)
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:33 am
Location: The Sunflower State

Re: Model 1893

Postby JohnWylie » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:09 am

This is awesome information on this topic and certainly clarifies any questions. Its perfectly logical for a new owner to change the serial number assignment format for the same rifle/carbine. It may have even been part of the negotiations for the sale of the company.

Thanks for the help..
JohnWylie
 

Re: Model 1893

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:16 am

JohnWylie;

Good point! Something I had not really considered, but should have. Thank you!
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there be no warning shot!

The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
Regnier (gunrunner)
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:33 am
Location: The Sunflower State

Re: Model 1893

Postby marlin 1893 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:41 pm

First off I am not saying that you are wrong.Second I am aware that after 1906 Marlin introduced several new models
of slide-action repeaters in both shotgun and rifles.I think I understand what your saying is that to do this they
decided to cut the production numbers of the lever action rifles because they couldn't sell them,so they could devote
more people and time to the new Models of firearms.I am glad you mentioned the new pump shotguns and rifles that
were introduced though because I had never really paid any attention to there serial numbers.Here is where I think
I may disagree.You say that Marlin was very happy with the system that had been inplace since 1881,and that they
had no reason to change it.If that being the case they would have started the the pump shotguns off with the serial
number 1 and went through the numbers till the end of 1915.This would make a pump shotgun made in 1911 have a
serial number of around 150,000.They would have done the same with the pump rifles also.If you get a chance get
out Bills book and check out the serial numbers system on the pump shotguns and pump rifles and see what you think.
Then see if you think that Marlin never changed the one through how ever many gun they made.One more thing I noticed
is that the Model 17 shotgun made 1906-1908,the Model 19 shotgun 1906-1907.Both are listed as having the serial numbers
with the A prefix.The Model 1898 made from 1899-1905 does appears to be numbered in the original manner as the records indicate the low number of 19,601 to the high of 67,000.I do want to state that most of my information has come from
Brophys book and I know that some of his information is incorrect.
marlin 1893
Marksman 1st Class
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Re: Model 1893

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:22 am

Marlin 1893;

The exposed hammer pump action shtoguns did have their own serial number range (I think the hammerless have their own range too, but I do not buy hammerless guns as I think they are ugly, and I do not buy ugly guns) , and if you check the section on Shotguns here, you will see that someone posted that they have a Model 1898, serial number 9. I have been gathering some of these old, exposed hammer shotguns for a couple of years, and decided to do a little research on them by recording serial numbers of guns I find. I have found a Model 30, Grade B with a serial number in the 143,000 range that still had the old style of "hang fire release" system. The reason that is interesting is that the Model 30 is one of the models that had both styles of release. The early, pushbutton style, (high on the right side of receiver), and the later, lever style (down on the trigger guard). The Model 24 is another model to share this system. The newer release style is first shown in the 1915 catalog, so to me, I wanted to know around what serial number that change happened. But, with that Model 30 with the old style release, in the 143,000 range shows that the serial numbers were getting close to what the 1911 catalog said, and yet, is under when the new style release is shown in the 1915 catalog.
The "A" serial numbered Models 17 and 19 you see are Marlin Arms or Marlin-Rockwell assembled guns. Apparently there must have been quite a few of those receivers left over and the new companies wanted to use them up. There are other models that have the "A" serial number prefix too. I have a M-R letter dated 1919, about the repair of a Model 17, and they state that they have exhausted their supply of parts and cannot repair the gun.
I have not spent any time on the pump action rifles as I have only owned a couple over the years. Good ones are to hard to find and without a reason or ability to follow them, I cannot spend the time on them. I suspect the pump action rifles had their own serial number range. There was someone gathering informtion on the pump rifles, but he died and I do not know what happened to the information he had put together. I know his sons and may look into it.
When Bill originaly went to write the Marlin book, it was only going to be on the lever action rifles. But, Frank Kenna, President of the Marlin Firearms Company wanted a complete book on the Marlin Firearms Company. That affected what Bill had started, and he had to go into all aspects of the company with less time to spend on what he really wanted to do from the start. He had little time to spend researching some of the earlier models that there was less information available, so there are errors and ommisions. frankly, it is surprising it is as correct as it is, but new information is always showing up to change "history".
I was not saying that Marlin could not sell lever guns, but without an expansion of the factory and manpower, something had to give to be able to produce all the newer products Marlin was offering. So, reduce the number of lever guns being made to allow machinery and manpower to devote to manufacturing shotguns and pump rifles.
I hope this helps.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there be no warning shot!

The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
Regnier (gunrunner)
Distinguished Expert
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:33 am
Location: The Sunflower State

Re: Model 1893

Postby marlin 1893 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:31 pm

On page 366 in Brophy's book he states that the Model 1898 and the Model 16 both share the same sereis of serial
numbers. The Model 16 was introduced in 1903.
Then in 1906 the Model 19 was introduced.The Model 19D is listed with a low serial number of 814.The Model 19N
is listed with a low serial number 241.Clearly one would think that Marlin did start a new series of serial numbers
with the Model 19.
The Model 30 introduced introduced in 1911 clearly shows that Marlin started a new series here with a low serial
number of 3314 .
The Model 30-20 introduced in 1915 is listed with a low serial number of 1257 clearly again Marlin started with
at new series of serial numbers for the Exposed Hammer Slide Action Shotgun.
With out going into a lot a detail the Exposed Hammer Slide Action Rifle serial numbers seem to start over at
different points also.
marlin 1893
Marksman 1st Class
 
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 pm

Next

Return to No Longer Guest Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest