1892 feed problem

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apb
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1892 feed problem

Post by apb » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:54 pm

I have feeding problems with an 1892 that I recently acquired. The cartridge moves onto the carrier but allows the next cartridge to extend far enough to block carrier from moving up to the breech.

This rifle seems to have no provision for a cartridge stop which would normaly prevent this.

Anyone have any insight?
Archie

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marlinman93
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Post by marlinman93 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:21 pm

Sounds like a worn out carrier.
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Post by apb » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:44 pm

Thanks for the response Marlinman. What part of the carrier would you expect to be worn?

I have examined it pretty closely and don't see any place that looks worn. Just for grins I removed the pivot pin, turned it 180 degrees and tightened up the hole just in case there was some wear there but it was no help.

The face of the carrier that stops the cartridge shows no wear at all.
Archie

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marlinman93
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Post by marlinman93 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:57 pm

I would expect the wear to be where the carrier contacts the lever, which positions the carrier to stop the second round from following. This is why Marlin retrofitted many 1892-1897 Marlins with a cartridge stop later.
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Post by apb » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:37 am

Hmm...If I understand the action correctly, the carrier drops below the magazine tube and allows the round to slide onto the carrier. The end of the groove in the carrier stops the cartridge which keeps the next cartridge from exiting the magazine and when the lever is closed the carrier rises and keeps the next cartridge in the magazine until the carrier is lowered again.

In my rifle when the cartridge slides onto the carrier it allows the next round to stick out of the magazine so far that the carrier hits it when it starts to rise as the lever is closed. There is no wear visible at the end of the carrier groove.

The carrier is raised by the lever riding aginst a spring mounted in the carrier that follows a ramp on the lever and lowered by a similar action between a pin on the carrier and a ramp on the lower side of the lever. Wear in the spring / lever contact area would seem to change the timing of the rising carrier relative to the position of the lever but have no affect on the blocking of the cartridge. Wear of the pin/lever area would seem to change the final position of the carrier and would seem to not pull the carrier down far enough to allow the round to slide onto the carrier in the worst case.

I don't see how the carrier could block the second round and allow the first round to exit. If the overall length of the carrier was worn or short it would seem to reduce the problem because the second cartridge would only extend fruther after the carrier was blocking it and not when the first cartridge was blocking it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the groove in the carrier is too long.

I believe this could be because of wear at the end of the carrier groove (which I don't see) or because someone substituted the wrong part ( if later models are different) or because LR rounds are shorter today than they were at the turn of the century.

What am I missing?
Archie

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marlinman93
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Post by marlinman93 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:47 pm

The carrier drops to allow the next cartridge to enter, but only for an instant, because the rocker and rocker spring contact the lever to raise the carrier slightly which stops the next cartridge from entering. If your carrier has a worn out rocker, or the lever is worn out, then it will be out of time and not stop the next cartridge from entering the receiver.
The reason the 1892 was able to function with shorts, longs and long rifle ammo was because it didn't catch the rounds based on length, but rather just caught the rim.
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Post by apb » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:03 pm

Thansk Marlinman.

I'll have to examine the rifle again in light of your explination. I don't thiink my carrier bounces up at the end of the downward motion. If I remember correctly it just sits there.

Also I did not realize that this rifle was susposed to function with shorts etc.
Archie

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Post by apb » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:18 pm

Marlinman,

This is not making sense to me. I looked at the rifle again and when the lever is closed the carrier is held in it's lowest position by the pin on the back side of the carrier which is pulled down by contact with the lever. The carrier cannot rise up even close to being able to block the next cartridge from the magazine. Any wear in this area would only seem to allow the carrier to rise further not drop lower.

When the lever is closed the rocker is located well above the lever and cannot exert any force to move the carrier up. The lever can move down some 30 degrees before it contacts the rocker.

Feeling somewhat lost here.
Archie

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Post by apb » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:14 pm

Come on folks how about a little help here.
Archie

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marlinman93
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Post by marlinman93 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:40 pm

OK, let's take another route. Have you looked at the cartridge cutoff that sits in the left receiver side? If it's bent in, worn, rounded, or broken, it wont stop the next cartridge. Just another item to check.
It's held in by the screw that's dead center on the left outside of the receiver.
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Post by apb » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:13 pm

This is an early '92 and does not have a cartridge cutoff. I don't mean it is missing, there is no recess for it as the early '92s did not have this feature.
Archie

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marlinman93
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Post by marlinman93 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:13 pm

That could be your problem then. It was a weak point in the early guns, and a number of them were sent back to Marlin to be fitted with a cutoff, because of functioning problems. When they retrofitted them they got a new ideplate, to eliminate the guide in the plate, and relocate it to the receiver.
On the early guns without a cartridge cutoff, the bolt catches the first cartridge. As it moves rearward, the carrier lifts slightly to rest against the side of the cartridge until it completely enters the carrier. At this point the pressure against the first cartridge by the carrier lifts it, while simultaneously stopping the next cartridge from entering the receiver until the carrier drops back down after the first one is chambered.
Again, if your carrier, or the rocker on the carrier aren't working as designed, it will allow the second one to try and enter behind the first. This means everything from the lever, to the carrier, the guide and the rocker in the carrier must be in good shape to have it function perfectly. There is guide that fits into the removable sideplate on the early guns, so check that also for wear, as it could be part of the problem too. It's a twisted flat spring arrangement and I've tried working a 1891, or early 1892 with the sideplate off, and it will always allow the second cartridge to enter. A broken, bent or removed guide will foul up everything.
A cutoff makes up for a lot of wear in various parts, and would be the simplest fix, but if it's an above average condition gun you wont want to modify it for one.
I wish I could be of more help, but it's really a matter of the lever, carrier, guide, and rocker all being in excellent shape.-Vall
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Re: 1892 feed problem

Post by apb » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:54 pm

Vall
Thanks for the info. Everything you mentioned seems to be in pretty good shape. Could the problem be related to the length of the .22 LR of today vs turn of the century? In other words, I believe I have read elsewhere that the .22 LR used to be more like the max length of 1.000 vs todays .9xx. If that is true it would cause the problem I'm having.

It has been suggested elsewhere, that at least one other person had reduced the length of the cartridge recess in the carrier to get his 1892 to function. Seems like about .040" reduction in length of the slot would make it work with todays longest .22 LR. I would epoxy or solder it in place making it reversable should someone want to undo it in the future.

For the record this rifle is in pretty good shape with maybe 5% blue but nice browning. There are no pits but the barrel has been shortened and has some kind of oddball front sight added a long time ago. The rear sight is also not original but is pretty period correct. The wood is in original but used condition with a few dents and dings but solid with no cracks.

I want to use the rifle mostly at SASS side matches. If I can convince myself I can replicate the patena I may try to replace the front sight with something more typical of the period.
Archie

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Re: 1892 feed problem

Post by marlinman93 » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:03 pm

If the problem was due to length o ammo, then everyone with an old 1891 or 1892 would be having the same problem. I've got a total of 6 1891/1892 Marlins, and have never had an issue with functioning that could be related to cartridge length. I sure wish I could examine the gun firsthand, as I think I've done all I can via this venue. I just can't do much more without seeing it.-Vall
Marlin lever actions 1870's-WWI, Ballards, and single shot rifles!

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Re: 1892 feed problem

Post by apb » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:36 pm

Ah, but you don't have any without cartridige stops. To the best of my knowledge all 91s and the vast majority of 92s had cartridge stops. I think adding a cartridge stop would probably go a long way toward making this rifle more functional and that seems obvious from the direction Marlin took.

I think I will try the spacer and see how it works.

Thanks for the support Vall.
Archie

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