Model 1893 Barrel Markings

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Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Wishbone » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:22 pm

I own a Model 1893 deluxe pistol grip takedown in .25-36M s/n 127,xxx. It letters as shipping in 1895. This should be the first year for a .25-36M. This evening I noticed that the 1/2 oct. barrel lacks the "SPECIAL SMOKELESS STEEL" barrel marking. The early .32-40 and .38-55's were not marked SSS. But I was under the impression that starting in 1895 with the advent of smokeless powder, Marlin marked all barrels with the SSS stamp (except the later "FOR BLACKPOWDER" marked barrels). I own several .25-36M's made after 1900, that are all marked SSS. I do not remember ever seeing a .25-36M without the SSS marking.
Anyone else observe this or any thoughts ?

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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:08 am

Bob;

Sounds like you just found a nice research project to determine at what point in the serial numbering system that the Special Smokeless Steel marking first started showing up on the barrel of the smokeless steel Model 1893's. It may be that your gun was made early enough in the production that the stamp had not been made yet to use to stamp the barrels.
To get you started, I have a Model 1893, a .38-55 with a serial number in the mid 139,000 range that is not marked SSS, and was shipped in late 1896.. My other 1893 in .25-36 Marlin caliber was shipped early 1899, serial number in the mid 178,000 range and is marked SSS.
Lets hear it from you other 1893 owners so Bob and help us all learn something new.......
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:04 pm

This is on the 1894 marlin's but were any of them known to have been made with the new harder steel barrels.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Road King » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:41 pm

Here are a few more to add to the survey of Model 1893s without the SSS markings.

SERIAL Number Caliber Shipped

99568 .38-55 10-25-1893
105779 .38-55 8-14-1895
110880 .38-55 9-28-1894
122855 .32-20
190370 .38-55

I also have #157439 , in .30-30 that is marked SSS, shipped in 10-9-1897

I do not have the letters on the 2 with no shipping dates.

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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Wishbone » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:19 am

Already a discrepancy.
Rick has 178,000 range shipped 1899 that is marked, and Road King has 190,000 range (wish we knew when this one shipped) that is not marked.

As stated earlier, I have 127,000 range that was shipped Sept. 1895 and is not marked.

So from the little bit of data we see here we can see that the SSS markings started appearing in either very late 1896 or 1897.
This really sounds like an undertaking for someone with experience in the research/info gathering department. I wonder if Parley's busy........

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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:46 am

Here's some thought on the 38-55 and the 32-40 calibers,They were not loaded with the new smokeless powder for a few years after 1895.I am not really sure when they entered the smokeless world.They remained black powder for a while but in the early 1900's they were available in smokeless.I have always thought not to use the new smokeless ammunition in these
two calibers unless the barrels were marked SSS. Unless they were the lighter loaded cartridges with lead bullets
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:22 pm

Gentlemen;

190370 was shipped in mid-1899.

Marlin1893: Nice theory. But when I looked in the 1897 catalog and found the .32-40 and .38-55 offered in the 1897 Marlin catalog in smokeless loadings along with the black powder offerings. I will have to dig out the 1895 and 1896 catalogs to see if the smokeless powder cartridges are offered in there. Your theory does sound reasonable, but the catalog says otherwise at this point. Will have to get back on this after checking the other earlier catalogs.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:32 pm

Gunrunner I dont have the eairler catalogs would you please check also and see if they were offering the 32-40 and the 38-55 in the high velocity smokeless loading .
I have got to wondering when they started them in smokeless and whether the high velocity loading was available then or later.It is intersting how these two
old blackpowder cartridges and a few more made it up to the High velocity loadings to be very compareable to the new smokeless cartridges,but just couldn't
stay because of the danger factor
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:46 pm

Marlin1893;

The 1895 Marlin catalog is the first to mention smokeless powder cartridges for the Model 1893, including the .32-40 and .38-55 cartridges. Both cartridges are offered with full metal jacket, mushroom bullets as well as express bullets. There is a notation listed with the .30-30 cartridge in the 1895 catalog in that the barrel and receiver are made of steel such as that used by the U.S. Government for the .30 Government cartridge (that would be the .30-40 Krag). The only mention of high velocity is in the text describing that the smokeless cartridges will have a higher velocity and a flatter trajectory than the black powder version of the same cartridges ( like the .32-40 and .38-55) The .25-36 Marlin cartridge is listed in the 1895 catalog.
I hope this helps.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:08 pm

Thanks gunrunner.That gets the Smokeless part.I thought it would have a year or two later.If you can find anything on
the time they became High Power Smokeless that would be great.I know that in 1905 They were available in H.P.S.
but I can't seem to find when they started or when they quit.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby shotley » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:23 pm

Bob, I have 173xxx deluxe in 32-40 marked SSS.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Wishbone » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Ken,
Any idea when shipped ?
Nice to hear from you. Missed you at the Grand Forks show !

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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:34 am

Just a little more thought.The origanal callibers 38-55 and 32-40 we already know they were blackpowder and not marked.It would make sense that all 25-36 and 30-30 1893's
barrels were made of the new harder steel,marked or not because they came out smokeless.It seems the 32-40 and the 38-55 were available in smokeless in 1895 but I can't
seem to find out in what velocity.It seems some 38-55 and 32-40 barrels were marked SSS in 1896.But maybe not all barrels were marked SSS.Gunrunner this is proablly a
question for you.Do you think say in 1897 or 1898 maybe even later if I wanted a 1893 32-40 but wanted nothing to do with the new Smokeless Powder and wanted to save a
few dollars,could I have ordered a 1893 with one of the older barrel's that were still left on hand.I want to say again this is a question.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby marlin1893 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:40 pm

On page 192 in Brophys book there is a Marlin add from 1896 listing the 1893 in 38-55 in High Power Smokeless.It also says all barrels in this model are made of Smokeless Steel but it doesn't say all barrels are marked SSS.So if this add was truly
from 1896 the 38-55 was available High Power Smokeless in 1896.
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Re: Model 1893 Barrel Markings

Postby Regnier (gunrunner) » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:34 pm

Marlin1893;

This is a good question, and we know that Marlin did offer the soft steel barrels at a discounted price after 1905 with the Grade "B" guns that were marked "For Black Powder" on the side of the barrel where the Special Smokeless Steel marking would be located. The "B" grade guns sold for about $3.15 less than the SSS guns of the same style. The question is, did Marlin have a stock pile of these soft steel barrels left over from 1894 when the SSS barrels were introduced in 1895. And, to get rid of them, did they begin to offer the less expensive barrels as a cost saving manuver? Unfortunately, we probably will never know if these soft steel barrels were offered for sale prior to 1905, and only SSS barrels available. There is nothing in the catalogs to help us out in this question until 1905.
To confuse things further, Brophy states only the Model 1893, 1895 and Model 27 barrels were marked with the SSS marking. But, I did see a Model 1897 with a Special Smokeless Steel barrel one time. It was a special order gun with a blued receiver as well. So, Marlin did make things not offered in the catalogs upon special order. With Marin's, it is "never say never.........."
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